Saturday, April 18, 2015

Racist Heart



geoffff


An old video but still catchy and true and it is important to keep Greens voters aware that there is a real issue with this party that can't be shrugged off with a few glib, comfortable, self indulgent furphies about "Palestinians" and "Settlers" as if this was a 1940's Western full of Cowboys and Indians.

And the bit players.

This video  is about four years old. Since then we've had Libya, Iraq and Syria. Tunisia, Iran, Lebanon, Afghanistan and Yemen. Gaza. Lebanon, Sudan, Darfur and Nigeria.  Again and again . Round after round. Missiles, attack tunnels and terrorism. War, murder, kidnapping and genocide. 

It can't all be Israel's fault. It is anti-Arab racism to say it is.

It is also appropriate right now because the British branch of the Greens franchise has just declared as policy the cancellation of EU trade arrangements with Israel. Cool. Lift the sanctions on Iran.  No racism there.

Take any opportunity to confront Australians with what this is about. A charge of racism is a serious one. It should cause some reflection especially when it comes from people with good cause to know what they are talking about.

We know that leftists throw allegations of racism around like confetti but that is because of the type of people they are. Loose allegations of racism are contemptible.

No need for the rest of us to deprave the standard.  On the contrary it is more reason than ever to confront those who project their easy, lazy, bigotry on to the rest of us.

Who do the Greens side with in those old black and white films of theirs? Who do they hate. The Cowboys or the Indians? The Blacks, the Mexicans, the Chinese or the Jews? 

It doesn't really matter. Like the old Westerns this is racist to all. It is equal opportunity racism, perhaps the Greens most celebrated and jealously guarded  achievement. Their highest value. Back to the forties.

This is because they are progressives.

Hat tip Daphne Anson  .

Friday, April 17, 2015

The UN Is The Greatest Single Threat To World Peace

geoffff

The UN has declared that Israel is the number one violator of women's rights in the world.

Tim Blair sees this all makes perfect sense.

It helps to understand this when you know that Iran is a sponsor of the declaration. Spare the rocks and spoil the woman.

And really you don't want to know about Iran's and the UN's idea of Gay rights.

Tuesday, April 14, 2015

The Filthy Disgusting Racism Of The Australian Broadcasting Corporation

geoffff


Tonight I saw what would have to be the most racist broadcast I have ever seen on Australian television. I will wait until my anger cools a little but be on notice it is past time we called this for what it is. This is a publicly funded organisation. Our taxes go to pay this racist filth.

They need to be sorted. I am sick of this sick mob of bigots sucking for all they are worth on the public tit.

Foreign Correspondent  devoted its entire slab of public space to an attack on the Jewish state and its right to exist. There is no other way to describe it. To describe this as sheer bloody minded cowardice and sleazy,pig ignorant, runt brained, narrow minded stupidity would be to pay them a compliment they do not deserve.

Get this into your heads, racist ABC filth.

If you haven't got the guts to ask "Palestinians" why they do not accept that Israel has a right to exist as a sovereign state with sovereignty over her borders and population then you may as well be an organ of the Waffen SS.,

And that is the honest truth.

What do you want? Ever lasting war?

Maybe it is time you had some blood going down in this war as well. Past time.

Maybe that might help to sharpen your dull thick racist minds just a tiny bit.

Scum. Gutless and complete and utter scum.

Friday, March 27, 2015

Why Not To Put NSW Labor Last In Tomorrow's Election.

geoffff

Because that would rob the Greens of their rightful place.

Remember this?

Second last will do.







On Rights, Peace and the Power of Truth



 Image result for martin luther king




geoffff


Once to every man and nation comes the moment to decide,
In the strife of Truth with Falsehood, for the good or evil side.

James Russell Lowe, nineteenth century abolitionist

As quoted by Martin Luther King Jr  concluding the Riverside speech of 4 April 1967 when King first linked the struggle for civil rights to the Vietnam War.

Human rights and peace are about as necessary and compelling a combination as any in nature. One without the other is an orphan that never was. A water molecule without oxygen.  Only a violent revolutionary or an academic could disagree.
 
Or perhaps Bob Carr.

It’s time to talk Turkey about the Israel issue. 

Not just Turkey.

It’s time to talk Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Qatar,  Iraq, Libya, Islamic State, Russia, Syria again , Obama, Europe, very especially Iran and very much in particular “Palestine” and all those across the seas who are driven into the Israel issue by duty or conviction whether for good or  evil.   All of them; woman, man and nation. It is time to talk Left. Especially the now openly antisemitic academic Left.

Some will take the use of “scare quotes” for “Palestine” as a calculated offence to the actuality of “Palestinian” human rights and nationhood; however “nationhood” is defined.  Not so. It is respectful of the rights of these people to not label them and therefore to define them by a banner they never did choose for themselves. It was chosen for them, then used by the regimes that have since ruled over them that they also did not chose. The PLO, PA, Hamas, Fatah, Islamic Jihad and the rest. They war among themselves most of all but they do have one overriding thing in common. Never an election in sight. Ever. 

There was an “election” in “Palestine” about a decade ago. It was the first.  It led to a sharp and bloody “civil war” as brutal as any and all civil wars.  But a war within a “state” that does not exist and never has?  What eventually emerged to grab power promised and delivered more killing and war and not just in Gaza. 

Everyone agrees another “election” is not a good idea right now, especially Hamas and Fatah. One “election” was enough.  Another brewing “civil war” has higher priority.  Of all the “polities” in the world only “Palestine” needs this many “scare quotes”.

There is much at stake here. This is a struggle for the language as much as for civil rights and peace. It is a struggle for language. Those who are arrayed against Israel and accuse her people of genocide, imperialism,  fascism, aggression, illegality, war mongering, apartheid and racism are first of all mortal enemies of language as are all ideologues of totalitarianism and their fellow travellers. Also drained of any worthwhile meaning are terrorism, defence, law, ethnic cleansing, soldier, two state solution, occupation, independence, liberation,  freedom and self determination.  

Kill the language of politics, and civil rights and peace are at your mercy, as George Orwell so brilliantly made manifest for the ages. The Left are particularly adept at this. The past belongs to you no matter what abomination you have in mind. Genocides, wars, nakbas, nations and peoples either happened or did not depending only on the narrative of your ideology and nothing else. That can be changed at will.

As human conflicts go, this one has been loaded with enough baggage to weigh down the Sixth Fleet. 
 
At stake is the idea of the rule of law and especially the concept of international law.

What could be called in Australia, the Bob Carr slur against the law, is so ubiquitous that many take it as a given. That the 1949 armistice lines are now borders and therefore the Jews living beyond the borders and their communities are illegal even if they are on land where Jews have lived continuously for centuries. Even in Jerusalem. The Israeli government is acting illegally by permitting Jews to live in certain Jewish neighbourhoods in Jerusalem, or indeed by not removing them, by force if necessary, to make way for Hamas and the PLO. Only Jews are illegal. Arabs can and do live where they like, even if they are Israelis, including in what was once the Jewish Quarter of the Old City. 

There is no suggestion of illegality from anyone and certainly not from Bob Carr.  The Bob Carr concept of jurisprudence has very closely defined boundaries indeed. Whether people are living in an illegal community depends entirely on whether the people are Jews. Jews living in a part of the city where they are forbidden are breaking the law.

The 1949 armistice lines are exactly that. The lines were declared in a flash by soldiers on a battle field strewn with vehicles, guns, interlocked troop units and the tangled debris of war. They were not and were imagined to be borders.  It was an interim boundary pending negotiations and treaty between the parties that did not even include “Palestinians”, let alone “Palestine”. They did not exist as an identifiable people or nation. All that was in the future. The negotiations never happened and so the state of war never ended. Instead there were three more wars. Every peace initiative since has been grounded in the principle of land for peace. A negotiated border in exchange for peace and recognition. The “Palestinians” have been retrospectively catapulted into history as a principal party, as sometimes happens, even if no one is able to define who they are or accept where they came from. (Here’s a hint. Jews are from Judea. Arabs are from Arabia.) 

That the “Palestinians” are there now no one can deny but here is the rub. Land for peace was accepted by Israel and Egypt and so there was a peace treaty.  A permanent peace with Israel has never been accepted by “Palestine”. That would require recognition of the sovereignty of the Jewish state, including sovereignty over her borders and population, and that is abhorrent to the ideology of Palestinianism and those who push this ideology from Tehran to the campus of Sydney University.   As Yasser Arafat observed to Bill Clinton after the collapse of the Camp David talks, any “Palestinian” leader who attempted such a treaty would be signing his own death warrant.

None of this is to suggest that a negotiated two state solution is not fair, legal and equitable. Just not at all possible right now, is all.  So what the Israeli PM says in an election campaign is irrelevant to all of this. Of course there can be no unilateral withdrawal to an old armistice line puffed up as a border in a war that has never been declared over.  That is not a bid for peace and if it is required by law, then this is a law that requires that Jews who can not be killed or subjugated must commit suicide. Good luck with that. This is something beyond the gift or power of Netanyahu or anybody else. Even Obama, Jimmy Carter or Carr could not deliver on that. If you want Jews dead then it will have to be murder. The haters of Israel should at least have the honesty to say so. 

Iran does.  

Exactly a year to the day after the Riverside speech, Martin Luther King had his throat torn out by a single bullet from a high powered rifle while leaning over the rail of the balcony of an Afro American segregated motel in Memphis, while talking to a colleague of Jesse Jackson below, silencing him forever. Twelve years earlier and he had begun his campaign with the Montgomery Bus Boycott. 

Many then thought his campaign was a pipe dream. King was a trouble maker. He was up against an ingrained racism in people who themselves were often thought of in racist terms. White trash. The Alabama cops just across the state border in Driving Miss Daisy. The mob who Gregory Peck had to guard his client from in To Kill A Mocking Bird thereby inspiring a generation of lawyers who might have otherwise done something more useful with their lives. Incorrigible and beneath reform.

Fifty years later and there are hundreds of high schools, streets and public buildings named after Martin Luther King, most of them in the south. People can change. In the time of Martin Luther King most Australians would likely have identified more with segregationists with the bull horns and the guns than with the non-violent civil rights movement. We had our own segregation and King and his movement would have been seen as evidence in support of the White Australia Policy. Keep foreign racial troubles out. Political cultures are never stagnant. It is bigotry to suggest they are never ending for some. 
 
The notion of Jews being confined to their own section of town is hardly new but to declare it as modern law is bizarre, offensive and dangerous. If there is any hope of an agreed land for peace deal then it must be negotiated between parties that are not impugned as illegitimate. If one party is to be excoriated as “illegal” then the negotiations have failed even before any one has come to the table. That way lies war. This is why Carr and people like him, including of course the whole BDS movement, are a threat to world peace.
 
The terrifying thing is that Carr may well be right and that if the matter was to now come before an international tribunal,such as the ICJ, a majority of the judges, coming as they do from countries where judges are under the thumb of the ruling ideology and even some who are not, may decide that Jews living free are illegal in “Palestine” as they are throughout the Muslim world. Or would be illegal had they not been expelled decades ago. They offend not just sharia. At that point international law will have caught up with sharia. It is exactly at that point that international law as a concept worth preserving will have died. What stumbling brain dead hulk that remains would be best put down before it did any more harm. A victory for Bob Carr. 

So it is time to stop calling this issue the Israel/Palestine conflict.  It has nothing to do with “Palestine” or Israel, or at least nothing they can do much about. It is a multi layered abuse of the language to call it this.  Israel and “Palestine”  are paper boats in a bath buffeted by much wilder ocean winds. Neither is really in control of its destiny. “Palestine” in particular has no free agency at all. 

Call it the Israel issue if you like because it is least of all about Israel and is about the rest of us. Take a look at “Palestine” and the rest of the Muslim world, especially Iran that now the worst and most dangerous US president in history, even worse than Carter, has fallen on both knees to appease like a supplicant who beholds a vengeful prophet. This could be exactly the problem.  Take a look and you are staring into the mouth of an active volcano. If you think that tossing Israel into the boiling lava will calm the angry fires, a sort of human virgin sacrifice to the gods, then you are indeed in the mental atmosphere of the seventh century.

As if you could. Some sacrifice. Some virgin.  But you could end up destroying the world.  




cross posted Israel Thrives

                  Jews Down Under

Tuesday, March 10, 2015

An Attack On The Human Rights Of Muslims

geoffff

It makes sense really. Any victim of radical Islam is bound to be a little Islamophobic especially if they are dead. That would do it. 



Je Suis Islamophobe




From Uncommon Sense


Charlie Hebdo has been named 2015 International Islamophobe of the year, despite many of its staff having been killed by Jihadists in January. The annual ‘award’ was given by Islamic Human Rights Commission (IHRC), a British group that claims to campaign against terrorism.

According to the Muslim website 5Pillars the award was given to Charlie Hebdo because of its “continual stoking of Islamophobic sentiment by caricaturing Muslims as terrorists and ridiculing their beliefs.”

It continued: “Charlie Hebdo’s repeated mocking of Muslims is part of a culture of hate that is intended to marginalise, further alienate and further endanger a community that has effectively been ‘otherised’ in much the same way that Jews were in Nazi Germany.”

Staff at Charlie Hebdo were unable to accept the award as many of them had been murdered for mocking Mohammed. Their offices were attacked on 7th January, when two gunmen called individuals out of the morning editorial conference to be executed.

The terrorists shouted “the Prophet is avenged” and “we killed Charlie”, in reference to their aim of avenging the same religious insults the Islamophobe award was given for.

Overall Islamophobe of the Year was the Home Secretary Theresa May. She is accused of being the “driving force behind the introduction of yet more repressive legislation targeting the Muslim community”. The IHRC is specifically unhappy with the Counter Terrorism and Security Act, which requires professionals like teachers to report potential terrorists to the authorities.

The UK winner this year was Maajid Nawaz, co-founder of the anti-extremism think tank Quilliam. He takes the crown from the former Editor of Breitbart London, Raheem Kassam, maintaining the tradition of giving the award to a British Muslim whose activities are not deemed acceptable to the IHRC.

Media awards were given to both Fox News and the film American Sniper. 5Pillars explained the award for Fox News saying: “The jingoistic American news network remains a major source of misinformation about Islam and Muslims and continues to take delight in their demonization.”

A ‘positive award’ was given to Abdel-Rahm√®ne Azzouzi who resigned as a City Councillor in Angers, France because of the Islamophobia of the country. In the media Azzouzi claiming France was “sitting on a powder keg” because of its treatment of Muslims after the Charlie Hebdo attack. 

Sunday, March 8, 2015

The Power Of Empathy, Politics and Palestine

geoffff

Lissa Johnson is a clinical psychologist with an interest in the psychology of ideology and politics, and the philosophy and politics of psychology. Occasionally she writes for New Matilda.

Her most recent piece was about empathy and in particular why we appear to display more of it for animals used in the recently exposed greyhound baiting scandal than for  a young aboriginal woman who died last year after falling ill while in police custody  for a petty reason.

An introduction and link to the article follows but towards the end of the piece is this odd observation that demanded a comment on the power of propaganda and its impact on people like Lissa Johnson.. 


In experiments, for instance, people give images of suffering children a wider berth than images of healthy children. Our Government’s secrecy around immigration detention has sought to capitalise on this very tendency, rendering our avoidance of suffering children routine.
Little wonder that Gillian Triggs has been pilloried for making those children the targets of empathy instead.
The Forgotten Children report must be particularly distressing to our Government given that empathy is the emotional wellspring of altruism and altruistic acts.
Empathy produces helping behaviour of all kinds, and intergroup empathy and its correlates predict degrees of support for, or opposition to, various social policies, including redistributive social policies, humanitarian aid to Palestinians, military aggression against Palestinians, torture of Iraqis including water torture, beatings, stress positions and humiliating acts, and torture of Muslims in general.

So if you are an opponent of Hamas and other terrorist gangs that milk and oppress Palestinian people or of if you have sympathy for its targets and victims forced into self defence then this is because you are a person without empathy. If you support the regimes that carry out these terrible acts then that is because you are basically an altruistic person who has evolved differently to the cavemen. Killers and altruists are both the work of natural selection and the inference is that we have a choice to evolve towards the better angels of our nature.

Interesting. This exposes  a problem with the whole concept of psychology in politics right there.  

The psychology of politics depends entirely on the politics of the psychologist.  

This blog's comment.






geoffff Posted Friday, March 6, 2015 - 01:25


Thank you Barney*, I was just about to make that point. The power of images and the message ( the mainstays of political propaganda) is overlooked entirely in this article. The animal cruelty was fresh and raw and in your face. It had shock value. 
It also overlooks the power of emotionally induced disdain or even hatred (such as racism). 
Lissa Johnson has unwittingly provided a classic example. She demonstrates that she has "empathy" for "Palestinians" but none at all for Israelis.  "Palestinians" subject to "military aggression" (which simply does not happen) and kept in permanent "refugee" status by corrupt "humanitarian aid", often channelled to terrorists,  she interprets as absence of empathy for the people.  
On the other hand, the building of dozens of  terrorist attack  tunnels (with cement supplied as "humanitarian aid")  , the launching of thousands of missiles at civilians,  and the kidnapping and murder of children invoke not the slightest suggestion of empathy for the victims at all and it could only be because they are Israeli Jews.
This is the common, default position of the fashionable left. It is impossible not to conclude that this emotional and irrational reaction is primarily the result of years of anti-Israel propaganda in main stream media and especially the skilled exploitation of shocking TV images.
This is endemic but perhaps the most infamous illustrations are the Netzarim Junction blood libel, (aka the Al Dura Affair) and the dead baby strategy. 
A straight forward case of induced emotion trumping reason.  

 *But the story about empathy for the animal victims of greyhounds, is about the fact that we watched it and heard it on TV. If Julieka's last hours had been televised there would have been a great outcry. But it was just another brief news story about someone we didn't know who lived a long way from us. We were able to put it aside and get on with our own lives.
  
Lissa Johnson responded (below) but then the exchange took another odd turn when another commenter entered. 

Swami has identified as an Australian born Muslim but not of a mainstream denomination. The exchanges with him or her and with Lissa Johnson show just how deeply the anti-Israel narrative has burrowed into the bones. That there can be no empathy with Israeli Jews is taken as a given. It does not receive a moment's thought. That they have no feeling for the Arab victim of an appalling crime is also assumed. That they are capable of any crime and collectively responsible for every crime is also taken for granted. This is a reflex that takes no thought. 

The article. 






4 Mar 2015

Dying Like An Animal: The Price Of Empathy And How Governments Use Yours Against You

By Lissa Johnson

Want to know why some people are more moved by greyhound baiting, than by an Aboriginal death in custody? Why the Abbott Government restricts media access to images of kids in detention? Why Gillian Triggs has been targeted? Why we’re so easily collectively exploited on issues like terrorism and war? It’s all about the empathy and how governments target yours, writes Dr Lissa Johnson.
It was difficult to stomach the reports of animal cruelty in the greyhound racing industry last month.
So alarming was the Four Corners coverage of injured rabbits and possums, dying slowly as they screamed in terror and pain, that it made front page news the next day.
And rightly so. No living creature in human care should die like that.
Which gives pause for thought.
I wonder if  Julieka Dhu, a Yamitji woman arrested for unpaid parking fines in Port Hedland last year, experienced something similar as she lay dying in her jail cell.
One can only imagine the anguish, horror and helplessness of a slow painful death before others’ eyes while pleading repeatedly for help. What Julieka’s family must feel knowing that she died like that is beyond harrowing to contemplate.
For some reason, however, Julieka’s suffering has elicited less of our collective outrage and concern than the suffering of the animals in the Four Corners report.
Far less.
.............................................................................
Continues here.
First Lissa Johnson's response (which concedes the power of the "main stream media" but not apparently other media. Whether she would include the Arab language internet hate sites and antisemitic propaganda  mills of Hamas and the PA we just don't know. Likely she has not heard of them )





Lissa J Posted Saturday, March 7, 2015 - 10:10

I agree with the points that people have made about the role of the mainstream media and its magnitude. Thank you for emphasising this. I think that the MSM and government interact with - capitalising on and magnifying - the human tendencies described here.  The degree to which this takes place is likely to vary from person to person and context to context, a whole other topic in itself.
On the subject of evolutionary origins, intergroup processes are just one quality thought to have an evolutionary basis, along with others such as physical violence and sexual exploitation, as well as pro-social, co-operative, selfless traits, as people have rightly pointed out.
In creating and conducting contemporary societies we decide which of these impulses we value, which serve us and our collective good, and which interfere. I am arguing that as intergroup processes have consequences such as death and human rights violations on the receiving end, they warrant serious consideration.
One implication of acknowledging the evolutionary roots of intergroup phenomena, which I hope came across, is that intergroup processes do not necessarily reflect overtly prejudiced or racist attitudes.  They can also reflect largely unconscious processes with a kind of prehistoric power. The aim of becoming collectively aware of them is to help us as societies to rise above them, even in the face of MSM manipulation, if that is what we wish to do.
..............................................................................
Right. 
Now the exchange with swarmi





swarmi Posted Friday, March 6, 2015 - 10:19

@ Geoff
Out of curiosity, whatever happened to those Israeli youths who, just before the last Israeli invasion  of Gaza, burnt a young Palestinian to death? Part of their method was to pour petrol down his throat. Do you know what their punishment for this hate/race crime was? And do you empathise with those Israeli youths?
But you are correct about how empathy is hostage to our political system. Maybe we will do well to see and understand our social context if we really want to answer what makes us tick. And if you want to believe that the only problem in this world is the Palestian and those who support their cause then maybe your empathy is a little compromised by the exclusive world your mind wanders around.

 geoffff  Posted Saturday, March 7, 2015 - 00:26

Out of curiosity, whatever happened to those Israeli youths who, just before the last Israeli invasion of Gaza, burnt a young Palestinian to death? Part of their method was to pour petrol down his throat. Do you know what their punishment for this hate/race crime was? And do you empathise with those Israeli youths?
With respect Swarmi, are you serious about these questions, especially the last one? 
The killers were quickly hunted down, charged with kidnapping and murder, and arraigned. The ring leader (the only "adult") has confessed and re-enacted the crime for the police. All of them were charged as terrorists. It hasn't come to a full trial yet but there is speculation that at least one will attempt a defence of insanity and two  minors will plead guilty to the kidnapping but not the murder.
They are all in custody and no matter what happens at the trial that is where they will stay. 
Of course I have no empathy at all for these killers. Nor do any Israelis who were shocked by the crime. Until the arrests many had difficulty accepting that these thugs could be Jews. Not just Israelis. The shock has been cathartic. The national soul searching as evidenced in the Israeli media has been profound.
All of my empathy was and is for the poor boy and his family. All of it. That poor harmless kid.  I know for certain Israelis at every level feel the same. 
Among some other things, I wrote at the time about the crime and its portrayal,  moral equivalence and the so called cycle of violence here.   

 swarmi  Posted Sunday, March 8, 2015 - 00:01

@ Geofff
I accept your disclaimer. But why are you so surprised I asked? Do you think all Jews are some indivisible whole? Do you speak for all Jews? I would be offended if I was labelled a racist simply on the basis I was born in Australia and this is an obviously racist country. And the majority of us who live here are not racists either.
But, when an incident like the race/hate crime committed by some Jewish individuals occurs, it must raise some alarm bells about the society from which it came. The KKK was an extremists group in the US that most Americans despise yet they did come out of American society and its sordid history of slavery.
So if you have empathy for the murdered Palestinian youth do you allow yourself the luxury of questioning the society from which this crime emerged?




geoffff Posted Sunday, March 8, 2015 - 01:24

So if you have empathy for the murdered Palestinian youth do you allow yourself the luxury of questioning the society from which this crime emerged?
I don't regard it as a luxury but as an Australian I don't feel particularly qualified. As you would expect, there was an avalanche of questioning, commentary, analysis and debate from people who, being Israeli, are enormously better qualified. There is already more than enough "questioning" from a distance of this society from the profoundly ignorant, not to mention malicious, just waiting for an opportunity.
This was a terrible crime. Just as terrible have been  committed in Australia. In fact regrettably they are more common here. These horrible crimes happen everywhere in the world. Rarely do they incite the kind of self examination of the "society"  that this did in Israel. 
Frankly I think they overdid it. It was almost stereo typical Jewish self flagellation and guilt.  Innocent people taking on the burden of the guilty. Nothing to do with an unhealthy society at all. On the contrary. 
However since we are talking about questioning societies for violent criminality let us at least be honest. Before this crime, three hitch-hiking Jewish kids were picked up by a couple of Hamas thugs at gun point. One of the kids managed to ring the emergency number. The Israeli police have a recording of the killers whooping with delight as they butchered their victims one by one. 
In Israel, the crime by Jews provoked universal revulsion and a swift legal response.
In the territories, Gaza and parts of Jerusalem the murder of the three Jewish boys provoked celebrations in the streets and general gloating. The PA press published a cartoon depicting  three baited rats hanging from hooks on a stick.
I have no doubt at all which society is the healthier. Do you?
Is that the kind of questioning you mean?
.............................................................................
And that was the end of the conversation. Progress? I doubt it. Dr Johnson offers a diagnosis of a very real and dangerous societal illness but does not appear to realise that she has a chronic form of the condition. 
Cross posted Israel Thrives